Self delusion is heady stuff…
19. Jun, 2007 
0 Comments
ed note: the post below is not one of my best. The points I was trying to make are entirely lost in the tone. I have apologied and discussed some more about this in a later post. I am not a big fan of re-writing history, so I am going to leave it up untouched other than this comment.
Look. Seriously. If you have a fetish for fat chicks, good for you. If you for some reason don’t care what your partner looks like, fine with me too. It’s really only when you try and convince those of us with the capacity to discern hot from not that we are the ones with the problem that I will point and laugh at you.
In any case, some ad agency came up with a pretty cool and oh-so-true add campaign. The idea was to put fat chicks in place of hot ones so that you could see that you know, size matters. As could be predicted a mile away the more detached members of the Internet blogging community reacted in one of two ways (actually, some did both)…
- Flip out and be disgusted and hurt
- Pretend like they actually liked this (a small, small percentage may like it – but many of the commenter’s are just kissing ass)
Anyway, the pics are below and you can see some of the reaction here, here and here.
Enjoy!
It’s weird that the title of this blog references the herd mentality, but the content of this blog entry implies that if you disagree with the Status Quo Beauty Pageant Beauty Standards, there’s something wrong with you.
FYI, that first woman is damn hot. Thinking this doesn’t make me deluded. The second lady is cute, and the third I don’t like so much. But I don’t walk around assuming that anyone who finds that third lady hot (and you know they’re out there) is delusional.
Did you actually READ the post? No, of course not.
“Pretend like they actually liked this (a small, small percentage may like it – but many of the commenter’s are just kissing ass)”
Thus, you can disagree with my comment aabout these chicks without being deluded – but most are just deluded.
Reading comprehension … it’s a good thing.
What Mike said. Way to go, Sheepy McFollower. Show us all how Seriously Rebellious you are!
I find it amusing that someone berating m e for being a “follower” would make the sum total of their post read “What Mike Said”.
Of course you would consider those int he mainstream “sheep”. One of the reasons radical activists hold unsupportable viewpoints is so they can feel all proud of themselves for seeing “through the fog”.
Heres the thing though – being into fat chicks doesn’t make you a rebel or an individual. At best it is a fetish but most commonly its a lame attempt to gain acceptance by other radicals.
I think you’ve missed something. women’s bodies actually have purpose and value beyond their sexual attractiveness to men. This makers of this ad don’t get that any better than commenters on other threads who counter the ad’s sickness with the proclamation that they find these women sexually attractive. That’s interesting but, like I said, it misses the point. The point, my friend, regarding whether fat or skinny women are attractive to men is this: who the fuck cares?
Yeah…
The ad’s campaign being that men only like slim girls? Hunny, during my time I’ve varied between a UK 12 and a UK 20- pretty big variation- and you know what? I have never, NEVER stopped being attractive to men. I don’t dress sexy, I don’t act slutty, but I don’t think I’ve ever gone a week without being hit on by some random guy, being complimented, being told I look lovely, being given appreciative looks…
I’m not bragging, just pointing out that if men really DO think that only slim women are sexy, then has every single man I’ve met since I passed puberty been blind? Or is it that the only men in the world that like bigger women live in this one area? (Oh, and all the places I holiday to, and the town I went to uni in.)
One of the tools that religions and other ideologies will use against you is simple… take something normal and natural and make it a sin. The resulting guilt, fear…and self loathing will make people desperate for forgiveness that only those who wish to control them can bestow.
Interesting. That’s rather similar to the way society has come to view fat, isn’t it? (With the media, multibillion dollar diet, pharmaceutical and fitness industries substituted for religion, naturally).
By the way, “commenters”, being a plural doesn’t require an apostrophe.
“Heres the thing though – being into fat chicks doesn’t make you a rebel or an individual. At best it is a fetish but most commonly its a lame attempt to gain acceptance by other radicals.”
This is utter bullshit. You believe this because thin is what is fashionable right now. It hasn’t always been like that. Preferences change because we’re taught what we’re supposed to find attractive. A hundred years ago, liking skinny women would have been labeled a fetish by you.
oh, lovely. and here i was warming up to you a bit. Hey, SH, I look like the woman in the top pic. Sorry it doesn’t meet your exacting standards, you know. Nice to know that everyone who’s ever been attracted to me has been “deluded.” please feel free to post your own pic for scrutiny at any time.
Sheesh, I had forgotten all about this thread till you posted belledame! I might as well respond from the top….
“women’s bodies actually have purpose and value beyond their sexual attractiveness to men.”
Of course they do, and nothing in this ad says anything different. To look at this picture and then try and extrapolate to an entire worldview, then attribute it to the company running the ad is madness. It’s like looking at a commercial with someone driving a car and saying “you know, people have value besides how well they drive!” or something.
“point, my friend, regarding whether fat or skinny women are attractive to men is this: who the fuck cares?”
If you don’t care, then this advertisement will have no effect on you. Since it’s entire message depends on telling you something that is only relevant if you care, you are automatically immune.
However, the simple reality is that the vast majority of humans do indeed care about attracting a mate. For many of them that includes attracting a mate who finds them sexually attractive. Whether it matters to you or not is totally irrelevant to the purpose or efficacy of the ads.
“The ad’s campaign being that men only like slim girls?”
No, the ads says nothing of the type. What the ads does implicitly say is that the most popular images of attractiveness have not in fact been of heavier chicks. Each of the pictures presented brings to mind some of the most powerful (and certainly popular) erotically charged images in recent memory and does point out that the shape of the women in question DID matter.
Of course men find a wide variety of women attractive. There are lots of reasons for that and certainly game theory explains why evolution has such wide tolerances in this regard. Clearly no every man has those preferences, and even among those who do the majority of them will often settle for much less than their ideal.
However the women that have a huge impact on a wide swath of the population are those that most closely approach the ideal evolution has left for the species. It is this point the ads make, and it is a true one.
“Interesting. That’s rather similar to the way society has come to view fat, isn’t it? (With the media, multibillion dollar diet, pharmaceutical and fitness industries substituted for religion, naturally).”
I disagree. While certainly those who are overweight may feel pressure to become more fit and trim that pressure is not part of a control tactic – it is a natural pressure rising from the inbuilt drives of the species. By and large our society is hugely supportive of the overweight. Even the diet industries you are commenting on are incredibly mellow and welcoming. They almost always tell you how it’s not your fault and that your body is working against you, for example.
There are people who consider the existence of a diet and fitness industry to be in and of itself an attack on the overweight. I simply don’t see it. The drive to be attractive is natural and common, the standards for what is attractive are also natural and common. That will lead, always, to people who wish to be more fit – and an industry to cater to it.
“This is utter bullshit. You believe this because thin is what is fashionable right now. It hasn’t always been like that.”
Incorrect. This idea is a common article of faith among many … but it is simply wrong.
With very, very few exceptions and local aberrations the markers for physical attractiveness have remained fundamentally unchanged for much longer than human recorded history. For the reasons, evidence and science I suggest you start with a book called “The Red Queen”. It is a great introductory primer on the influences genetics and evolution have on what is and is not attractive and why.
“oh, lovely. and here i was warming up to you a bit.”
Like anyone else I will hold opinions people like some of the time, and ones they hate some of the time. Few people agree on everything.
“SH, I look like the woman in the top pic.”
Ok.
“Sorry it doesn’t meet your exacting standards, you know.”
Why be sorry about it (I know your being sarcastic)? Seriously – why does it matter to you whether I would find you or anyone who looks like you attractive? How, and why, would you be insulted by my (or anyone) not finding you attractive?
Certainly I am not universally attractive. Sometimes I am disappointed when a specific person I found “hot” did not reciprocate the feeling but I am not insulted. I would no more be insulted by a woman not liking guys who look like me than I would be a lesbian not being attracted to me. People like what they like. It is a sexual preference like any other.
“Nice to know that everyone who’s ever been attracted to me has been “deluded.â€
The phrase used in the title was “self delusion”. Now, clearly the whole post didn’t communicate well, but I did not in fact say anywhere in the post that there were no people who found this shape attractive. I did say they were in the minority, and they are – especially people who find those women as attractive as the women they are standing in for. Which is by the way the position those commenter’s I called to task (the once who I labeled deluded) claim.
“please feel free to post your own pic for scrutiny at any time.”
Thanks for the post idea! I springboarded, hopefully you don’t mind.
ummmm, yeah.
I think the woman in the American Beauty style photo is really pretty. And I have no interest in sleeping with her, I’m straight, but I think she’s good looking. She’s heavier, so what? She’s proportioned, has nice skin, and really keen hair. She’s attractive, and I know a lot of men who would find her so.
I also think there is EXTREME pressure on people (women more so than men, but both) to be thinner. Sure, it depends a lot on where you live, your friends, your profession, even your culture (all my Italian friends are always trying to feed me for instance), and that pressure is unhealthy. You could have the most beautiful, healthy body in the world but if your mind and soul are shot to shit because people mentally and socially tortured you to get there, what good is it?
I think the woman in the American Beauty style photo is really pretty… She’s proportioned, has nice skin, and really keen hair… She’s attractive, and I know a lot of men who would find her so.
You’re right of course. She does indeed have several attractiveness traits. The traits we as humans tend to be attracted to are usually markers for health and genetic advantage. Smooth, clear skin and good hair are among them. I am not sure about her proportions, but of the three she is certainly the closest to the proportions that tend to be valued.
I am sure that there are men who will find her attractive. I tend to have a wide gap between “pretty” and “attractive” personally. There are a number of people I find pretty who I don’t find “hot” or attractive.
Anyway, again I don’t think the ads themselves implied that no one would find these women. In fact I think the photography and so on went out of it’s way to make these women look about as good as possible. However, again, the iconic women who first made those images well known had something extra and it was related to among other things a much better set of proportions.
I could be wrong
I also think there is EXTREME pressure on people (women more so than men, but both) to be thinner.
I think there is pressure… but I don’t think it is extreme to be honest. Now obviously it (as you mentioned) varies from place to place and also the personalities of the person will determine how they react. Some people simply don’t handle competitive pressures well at all for instance. I am sure it is hard for them… but it is not a specific attack and it is certainly not a conspiracy. There will always be pressure because humans will (for a long, long time to come) prefer what they have in the past from an evolutionary standpoint. There will always be a reference for attractive people.
As a counterpoint to that pressure there is a huge movement to make people feel good about themselves. Talk shows, therapists, books, radio discussions, websites and so on. All of it talking about how important it is to just accept yourself. A good message by the way. I am all for self acceptance – as long as that includes honesty about what you are accepting.
You could have the most beautiful, healthy body in the world but if your mind and soul are shot to shit because people mentally and socially tortured you to get there, what good is it?
Obviously I agree. Here’s the thing though – some pressures in the world are just natural. People (as a species) will always want money. People will always want an attractive mate. people will always desire (within limits) to “win”. Trying to eliminate that pressure entirely has the same effect that eliminating competition has done for children… remove a primary factor in achievement so as not to offend emotional veal.
I have great sympathy for those who simply cannot handle the realities of our species and the competition that is the underlying foundation of the “mating game”. If they need it they should get help (therapy, whatever). What isn’t reasonable is to somehow reverse or ignore millions of years of evolution and pretend that hot doesn’t matter.
Yes, heaven forfend we just accept ourselves without acknowledging that objectively speaking, according to some random dude’s idea of some armchair ev-psych BS, we’re still “fat chicks” to the rest of the world.
SH, you know something? You’re doing exactly, but EXACTLY the same crap that the radical feminists you love to make fun of do. “Hey, it’s not just me, it’s how the world is! I can’t possibly just cop to my own personal preferences without trying to make other people feel like shit in the process! much less acknowledge that the entire world might not be the way I think it is! It’s not me, it’s YOU!”
Lame.
Have to be nodding with Belledame here. Really, this is no different from the bullshit the rad fems give me for being pornified. Hell, I’ve won in both the mating and casual sex game, I also acknowledge that looks do matter to a lot of folks. People are attracted to what they are attracted to….but I know a whole lot of men who will take a gal with a good sense of self esteem who doesn’t whine about how fat or ugly she is over a “hot chick” who does.
And yes, all people face pressure and I do think a certain level of competition is very good, and very healthy…but what is stressed for a male (make good money, be strong) is different than what is stressed for a female (be attractive, be gracious), and I really don’t think the majority of men can understand just how different the “be attractive” pressure can be for women. Hell, I’ve been thin all my life, so I did not take that pressure like a lot of women did, but I know a lot of women who were really put through the ringer due to it, and I think mocking them or trivializing it (or them) is a cheap and shitty thing to do.
Ok ok, you win. The post sucks. I discuss a bit more about the train wreck here, and I have edited the post above to include a similar sentiment